Absent fathers

Noodle

Noodle

Active member
I just raised this issue in a previous post and I believe its such a controversial issue it warrants debate.

My thoughts are, as my ex husband walked out on me and my children without a thought and we never heard from him again, did he do the right or wrong thing?

Society will say he did the wrong thing, however i do not believe that society feels strongly towards men walking out on their families. Its commonplace isnt it?

Society feels strongly towards women who walk out on their children and these women are demonised in the media along with single mothers. Yet single mothers are the symptom of absent fathers and its very rare that a women will walk out on her children without a very compelling reason.

Here in this forum we clearly all believe that men should be present in their children's lives and it is encouraged, but if in certain circumstances they had chosen to turn their backs as many men do, then would we (and all involved) be happier all round?

Men have a very difficult time when they leave the family home whether it be by choice or circumstance. They have to at least support the children financially by law and then they are often expected to put a roof over the children's heads for visiting times. Some men simply cannot afford this.

Once they meet another woman as is natural, they are then often both continually judged as to whether they are parenting in accordance with the ex wifes wishes and beliefs.

If men do not tow the line, do as they are told, then access to their children will be denied in many cases. There have been incidences of blackmail. Im sure this happens a lot as I have worked in relationship advice centres and seen this first hand.

The Child Maintenance Service is geared towards keeping childrens time with fathers to a minimum as the less time a father spends with the children the more money the mother gets in maintenance . This in itself is an incentive for mothers to reduce the amount of time their children spend with their father.

The courts give out Child Arrangements Orders in favour of children spending most of their time with their mothers.

Is it any wonder, some men decide to opt out? Seemingly the system is wholly set up to penalise men. Thats without the personal aspect of the situation which in itself is painful.

Just to point out, I have been on both sides of this fence. There is a financial remedy for single mothers raising children with absent fathers. There is no financial remedy for fathers who have to leave the family home and start from scratch.

The UK government benefit system pays financial credits to the parent with the majority of care. There is no system or recognition in place for parents with equal shared care. The money tends to automatically be given to the mother without question and men have a usually long and pointless fight on their hands trying to explain the situation.

A single man on a minimum wage cannot afford to rent a house or flat with potentially 3 bedrooms. Where does that leave him when the EFH or social services demand children of a certain age and sex must have seperate rooms?

In my case, I was a single working mother with no financial support from my childrens father. I then engaged in a relationship with a man who wanted to wholly support his children. As a consequence of the system, which I believe is unfair towards men, we then suffered financially because the CMS did nothing to resolve the issue of my financial situation but were happy to hound my then partner for all they could take financially from him. We had 4 children between us and so we had to rent a 5 bedroom house. Needless to say it was a financial struggle. A huge burden upon our relationship both financially and emotionally. And all this whilst EFH sits happily in her 3 bedroom house with her pay outs from the government and the highest amount of child maintenance she can get whilst denying access for more money.

The UK CMS system is unfair. There are other systems in the world which take the income of households into account and then take a percentage from each household which lies within their means.

Ive recently been subjected to being told by friends that "I" must do my best to sort out the relationship between my H and my stepchildren because its the right thing to do from a moral point of view. I have begrudgingly done my best. But, sometimes it is just too hard.

I think its easier for wealthy people who can afford to throw solicitors letters around. We are not that fortunate and in part this is down to the privileges that ex wives are given after divorce / relationship breakdown.

Ive come to the realisation that there is no moral high ground. Sometimes things are better just left alone. Sometimes it is better to accept that its never going to work.
 
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Every situation is different. My kids father started off lying to me, I then found out he’d been meeting women online - after finding sexting on his phone to these women- I told him to leave … I won’t go into anymore detail but through his own behaviour and decisions my ex lost his job and I and my kids lost our home - I had to sell it. He now hibernates in his mums house by the sea and I’m only entitled to £7 a week off him - for two kids - because his history means it’s extremely difficult for him to get any type of paid employment and he only receives benefits. If he still sees his kids (once or twice a year) , it’s for his kids sake . Does he deserve to see them at all and still be called a father - answers on a postcard…
 
Is it any wonder, some men decide to opt out?
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The UK CMS system is unfair.
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The Uk CMS system is definitely unfair and creates more issues for kids of separated parents and more hostility between separated parents. Money always does. Divorce is bad enough in that respect. The main reason it is so unfair is it's not means-tested!

This means a Mother can be a multimillionaire or very wealthy and still entitled to a huge chunk of her ex husband's income. even if he is just a lower to middle income earner. That is grossly unfair. It's almost a fine or punishment for a marriage ending then.

The court social workers, in my view, still see Dads as bad because they moved out. When in many cases they didn't want to move out, but "did the right thing" so Mum and kids could keep living comfortably in the family home - when a marriage is over. And yes they end up not being able to afford a place of their own so struggle to get good time with the kids if it's only a 1 bed flat or studio flat eg.

As Honey says, every situation is different. There are Mums, as we know, who will take full advantage of the system - even planning ahead before separation.

I have a friend who is a single Mum and the child's Father lives a long distance away (never married). She regularly calls him a deadbeat Dad and says he only sees child once or twice a year and can't be bothered. She is a friend I always liked and respected but it makes me feel uncomfortable hearing the term "deadbeat Dad" - you only have to look at Mumsnet to see some of the vitriol poured on Dads (not all of them but some of them). Maybe he just saw what things were like for Dads - going to court, needing 10k to 20k to get a good order - and decided to give up.

There are some Dads who could never ever give up on trying to keep seeing their kids - very emotional and very bonded. And they don't do so well if kept away from their kids.

It's a huge topic and so many different situations and personalities, but the system really isn't good. Just supposing there was automatic 50/50 shared care (and no CMS) as in countries like Holland and Sweden. For some Dads this would be ideal and keep their kids out of years of court cases. Others probably wouldn't want it and happy for Mum to look after the kids and just see them occasionally.
 
The UK system needs to change. Its too old fashioned and its misandrist.
Its true, men could be given 50 50 every time and there would be some as in my case who wouldn't want that. That is down to the uk male attitude based on the archaic opinion that women should stay at home and raise the children. All very suitable until you become a lazy single mother who doesnt want to go to work and only has children in order to milk the benefit system.
Some women cant win, some men cant win.
My frustration lies in there.
EFH used to complain that H was a bad dad without any reason.
As Honey explained and in my case some men actually are bad dads. My ex husband actually ran away with a porn actress. True story! Never heard from him since. That is a bad dad.
Not as EFH used to complain, H was a brilliant loving father. Paid his way and more. Holidays, clothing , time, extra time, he would swap plans at the last minute. Cared for and loved his children. Everything a mother could want from a father but it wasnt enough for her. She never stopped with the complaining and the hate campaigning.
No wonder we emigrated. Now she actually does have something to complain about. Silly cow.
 
I think women like your EFH pick nice easy-going men they can manipulate. I know my EFH is like that. She thinks being nice is weak.
 
Noodle said:
The UK system needs to change. Its too old fashioned and its misandrist.
Its true, men could be given 50 50 every time and there would be some as in my case who wouldn't want that. That is down to the uk male attitude based on the archaic opinion that women should stay at home and raise the children. All very suitable until you become a lazy single mother who doesnt want to go to work and only has children in order to milk the benefit system.
Some women cant win, some men cant win.
My frustration lies in there.
EFH used to complain that H was a bad dad without any reason.
As Honey explained and in my case some men actually are bad dads. My ex husband actually ran away with a porn actress. True story! Never heard from him since. That is a bad dad.
Not as EFH used to complain, H was a brilliant loving father. Paid his way and more. Holidays, clothing , time, extra time, he would swap plans at the last minute. Cared for and loved his children. Everything a mother could want from a father but it wasnt enough for her. She never stopped with the complaining and the hate campaigning.
No wonder we emigrated. Now she actually does have something to complain about. Silly cow.
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It definitely needs to change. I think it’s getting worse rather than better. The things a man has to go through just to get to see his own children for reasonable time.

It can cost £30,000 upwards if represented to get a half decent order and many that self rep come out with very little as they are outgunned by an ex’s solicitor and barrister. It only takes the ex to accuse something and she gets legal aid and lawyers. Cafcass are in the Stone Age and support Mothers rather than children. Men are treated abominably - like second class citizens. A Mother can lie and do the most outrageous things and it is just ignored.
 
In the light of previous experience I firmly believe that child maintenance should be a very simple calculation.
A calculation based wholly upon the cost of raising an average child.
Not based upon fathers income.
Not based upon mothers time.
Many women would welcome 50 per cent childcare time shares.
I believe that this would encourage mothers to allow children more time with those fathers who want more time.

It exactly the solution to the child maintenance problem in a nutshell.
 
How would they calculate that though? I mean child maintenance might actually be less than the average cost of raising a child - which can be a lot. But I take your point there. I always thought it should be means tested. ie the Father only has to pay if the Mother's income is below a certain amount. There are some Mothers on very high salaries or even very wealthy but the Father still has to pay Child Maintenance even if he's on a very low income.
 
I guess people on different income have a different idea of the cost of raising a child. I think I saw an article which states the average cost per month could be over 900 pounds which is ridiculous. It does not cost 900 pounds per month to raise a child.
Child maintenance should definitely not be father wage dependent. Why should an ex wife benefit from the ex husbands potential future success?
Divorce should mean divorce, not I want to linger around in case you come into some good money that I can milk you for via the CMS.
If some women are expected to manage with nothing from their childs father, then why do others think they should have a huge chunk of their exes income regularly?
 
The argument is, that it's for the child, not the ex, but we all know of people who don't spend it on the child or don't spend it appropriately. It's just to save the government having to pay out more benefits basically. A tax on Dads.
 
The argument is a joke though, right? The mother takes the money and does what the hell she likes with it.
Give them childcare vouchers or tesco vouchers in that case.
 
I have a bit different perspective on this. When my ex left his career was just picking up. I talked him into applying for the job that he still has, have supported him financially from the beginning and have been working since I was 20. We were better off with both of us earning more. Then he found a nice Check lady and our marriage was over.
He paid child support for the girls, but based on the income of previous years. Since then his salary went up by at least 5 time, he is a good earner and has become one of the top directors. Good for him, he worked hard, but I helped him, I was alone at home with the kids while he was working abroad and being trained for about 2 yrs. during which time he met his future new wife.
He left me with debit on my account, we agreed that the money he made would go towards family, but instead he took it all, bought a new car and took that and left me with an old one. He went after my apartment, my mother sold her apartment, got a smaller apartment and gave money for the down payments for my apartment and I took out a loan. He could not, did not participate, because he was still studying and didn’t have a steady job, most only part time, so he wasn’t even eligible for the loan.
He wanted a piece of that too, because we were married.
So I did what I had to do, he payed for his new car, left us in a 2 bedroom small apartment and took the money he made.
Then he had two sons. They got everything, my girls were on a budget and he was paying 250 eur for each and nothing more, while earning the high salary.
His sons got his cars, they traveled a lot, what did my girls get? Are they less his?
I couldn’t give them all that much, because I was starting my own company and wasn’t making much money. Oh and he also got the apartment from his mother when she moved to the house she built with FiL who has died decades ago.

My girls knew they were NOT the priority or equal children of his. His wife was giving my girls an additional allowance, she did not agree to the way he treated the girls, our girls. She made sure her family accepted them and my girls even speak some Check.

Is that fair no!!!

Same for me and my sister. My father is a multimillionaire and when I asked if he could lend me the money his answer was always no. My stepmother stepped in and she offered to loan me money, but I gave up on the project. It would have been a good investment.
My brother got everything and more until my SM said stop to his spending.
He spend so much on his wedding that my SM went into a bit of a crisis mode when she saw how it was spent. We had shrimp, dinner, cocktails, band, wedding organizers, black tie for everyone, we all had fancy long dresses (I bouncy mine) and more shrimp in a hotel in the Hamptons. My father and SM financed half of of it and it went into 6 digit numbers.

Years ago my sister got 40.000 usd to buy out some relatives and get that part of my grandparents house from relatives and she was gifted more via my GP or rather my mother.

I never saw that money. Ever. As if I as a single mother didn’t deserve any help from him.

Do I think it’s fair, NO! It hurt, I did not and still can’t understand him, but it is what it is. I am used to it by now and treat them to lunch and pay for all the expenses when they came here.
Why? I am who I am, I like myself that way and I don’t have a problem with it, I choose to be different, because I know how all the inequities with my brother and my father’s lifestyle. My SM recently gifted me a diamond ring, not that expensive, but she lent me her jewelry for the wedding that was worth 35000 usd and I was afraid I might loose it, she just said don’t worry, enjoy it, I have a lot more.
I didn’t realize how lavishly they lived, because when I was there for a visit it was always the cheapest tickets to Broadway and so on.

I guess in some man’s minds divorce is divorce, also divorce from the children. Yes my mother was a bfh, but I wasn’t and it is the same in my case.

I do understand the opposite, I have felt that too with 5 lawsuits and money, money, my money if possible and more.

Both are unfair and hurtful. If a father can afford to give his child more, he should, same goes for the mother. Don’t abuse anyone financially.

I was abused, no my girls were and my ex at one point even apologized to them for being a bad father. That’s something, but he hasn’t changed his ways. He promised my EDD to help her pay the loan for her flat and Than announced that he can’t. His paycheck only went up, not down. He is, they all are big spenders and both my father and my ex can’t stand seeing me succeed. Or helping out.
What is wrong with those men???

So that is the flip side of the coin.
 
I guess some men, that I have had the pleasure of having in my life just want to divorce the entire family.
I could be rolling in poverty and they would lift a finger.
What’s wrong with me?
 
Nothing wrong with you Maya :) You know the saying - money talks. A divorced man wants to fund his own lifestyle and only pay what he has to for children from a former marriage. A lot of Dads resent giving money to the ex wife in case she doesn't spend it on the kids. Now if the kids were living with him he would pay for what they need because that's part of his lifestyle, but when they're at a distance I guess they just want you to sort it out. But aside from all that, divorce is just nasty and all about money. But yes it should have been fair.

I don't want to go over my own divorce but it left me in a financial mess and unable to work. My ex is (or was) also loaded - a high income earner - last I heard but I don't want to know anything about him any more. When you don't have kids. your entitled to zilch. Except half the equity (which in our case was negative equity and I got left to sort it out).

It was a tough time for about 10 years. It can happen to anyone but if you need a lawyer to get you out of a fix and have no money to pay one, you're in a mess. In hindsight I should have fought harder but didn't have money to pay a lawyer and decided to cut my losses.

But the reality is, even if you're married, if you don't have children - no spousal, no child maintenance (obviously) equals no income overnight. Our business was a partnership and that was wound up overnight - so I lost that too. The lesson I learned from that was - if you have a business with a spouse, make sure it's a limited company.

Anyway - bad memories!

The suicide rate among separated Dads is still very high though - with demands for CMS that they can't afford to pay. Yes it's based on their gross income, but they may already be mortgaged up to the hilt and the cost of living is high - the CMS can be more than they actually have available to pay.
 
And I am not boasting in any way, I live in a different country and have gotten no help from him. My SM arranged for a few financial gifts and wanted me to take some time off.
I understand you have to make it on your own, but families help (in a small way at least). I helped my EDD and I will help my YDD when it comes to that. We openly discuss it with both DDs and according to the amount of finances I give to each as a gift, that is already considered a part of the inheritance by law here. So there will be equal division, the rest is up to them.
We also discussed all this with H and what his children are getting.
For now the cards are on the table. H has his and I have mine.
 
Maya said:
I understand this, but what do you make of my father for example…?
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I can't imagine that scenario as my Dad never had anything and no parents to help him. He worked hard and we had a decent lifestyle but he was very frugal and always said nobody ever gives you anything, you have to earn it. In hindsight that was his experience but I was brought up to think that. But I think if you have a parent with money who helps one child but not the other, then it must be incredibly hurtful. Maybe he thought boys mattered more - different generation perhaps. I was also brought up to believe I shouldn't have a career and should just get married and have children and a husband would support me. Well I did have a career but it wasn't encouraged.
 
Yes, he was just here for two weeks his longest visit ever. We got to spend at least five whole days together and afternoons after work. For the first time in decades. Before it was just business to him. He spent an afternoon or max a day with us, the rest with his rich friends and interviews and meetings.
 
Yes grossly unfair and hurtful Maya and an example of men who turn their backs. As I said , this is what happens to some people whilst others get everything. I totally get that from your perspective and I believe he should have considered you and your girls more. Especially as you were still in contact and could see the reality of the situation.
I guess every situation is different.
My H did the right thing and more for the large majority of the time and whilst I was getting nothing.
So EFH then had the financial support from 2 men whilst I had the financial support of none.
I am not really sure how this can ever be balanced out. Taking from one hand to the benefit of another always leaves somebody without and the person who ends up with everything is the only happy person. Yet still it is not enough.
 
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